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Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed -> "We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]" + continue where I left off

So here, "Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed" is the manipulation tactic. A real example of this that I can provide you is me saying to him, "I have concerns about our child's nutrition while I'm away," and we get as far on that topic as the expression that she needs to eat often and to have nutritious foods, but before we get to the part where we're supposed to address the issue, he veers off subject by introducing another one: "Well, at least I don't let her watch TV all day long like you do!" This shifts the focus of the conversation so that he doesn't have to accept fault for not feeding her properly, to something that I'm not doing well enough, before he agrees to make changes. That's manipulative.

No it’s not. It’s him feeling defensive that you don’t like how he parents. He is deflecting yes, manipulating no. This is not abuse. This is typical when both people want to be right and feel understood.

"'We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]' + continue where I left off" is the response formula for preventing the manipulation. Here, that would sound like:

"We can talk about the amount of TV I let her watch later, if you'd like. I want to circle back to her nutrition... Are you able to make sure she has three meals a day and a couple snacks, and that she's getting fruits and vegetables during at least two of her meals?" This keeps the conversation on track so that we can address the issue. I care about the fact he doesn't like how much TV he watches and I'm willing to address that issue as well, just not at the expense of addressing her nutrition. Does that make sense?

How often are you really gone? What did he feed her this time?

I mean unless he is truly not feeding her, it’s better to let him parent his way, especially if it’s a seldom thing. When I used to travel my husband was bad about quick meals. Especially hotdogs, which I was not crazy about. But you know my kids kind of thought it was like a break from being serious and it gave them an opportunity to bond their way.

I would go through the other examples but it’s all the same. You two bicker, and equally escalate.

He is defensive, and sometimes doesn’t like you much. That’s normal for someone who has been cheated on twice, and trickle truthed.

If you want him to like you and be kinder then the only study guide you need is be likeable and kinder.

Don’t sweat the small stuff. Drive to understand and not to be understood. Avoid putting him on the defense for the foreseeable future and try instead to do things that bond the two of you, like friends.

I would never want a friend to hound me the way you both do to each other. But the only thing you can do is stop inviting him to a power struggle. One you are in a better place then start new boundaries. Put away all of this for a while. Wave the white flag and perform a truce.

Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere) -> "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." If misconstruction continues -> exit conversation: "This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later" + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response.

Here, "Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere)" is the manipulation tactic. A real-life example of that is:

BH asking what we should do about dinner, because it was getting late,

Me responding by asking, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make those chicken nuggets you said you wanted to make, and it'll go bad if we don't cook it soon. I know the countertop is a mess, but I could move everything to the sink and do dishes while you cook. Or I could move everything to the sink, make something else with the chicken, and do the dishes in between tasks or afterwards..."

And his response was, "I don't understand why the expectation is for me to come home and have to cook dinner." (Here is the misconstruction of what it is I actually said.)

Now I'm back tracking and re-explaining, "That's not what I said. I said the chicken was going to go bad; I didn't freeze it because I thought you still wanted to make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up. You told me you didn't mind cooking dinner some nights, and so I asked you if you wanted to cook. I didn't say that I expected you to."

Him: "You sure made it seem like you did. And what I said was that I don't mind cooking dinner when the counter tops are clean" (Here he is doubling down on his interpretation of my words, rather than acknowledging that he misunderstood what was said.)

Me: "I didn't expect you to cook. I said I would clean off the countertops if you wanted to cook, or that I could cook--"

Him: "Why are you making crazy eyes and using that tone with me? You know what, I want an apology."

Notice how in that conversation, the focus shifted from what we were doing for dinner, to what was previously said and meant (i.e., the conversation becomes about itself, or 'meta') and we don't actually decide on what it is we're doing for dinner. All the while, it's getting later and later.

Back to the study guide. "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." is the first step in the prevention response, to be used after my words get misconstrued. That might look like:

"Originally when I said, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up," what I meant was that I was asking you if you wanted to cook. I also offered to cook. Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood."

The study guide then says "If misconstruction continues," which might look like BH responding with "You sure made it seem like you expect me to cook,"

The follow up step is "exit conversation: 'This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later' + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response."

Which, in practice, looks like saying just that, and then after a brief break, re-initiating the conversation with something like, "Okay, let's figure out dinner. We need to use up that chicken. Would you like for me to clear the countertops so you can make chicken nuggets, or would you like me to cook?"

Then see how he responds to that. If he again returns to "Why do you expect me to cook?" it would suggest to me that he is intent on misconstruing what I'm asking, and the manipulation tactic is being used on purpose.

Does that make sense? Hopefully that clears up and contextualizes the study guide a bit for you.

Turning back to the next part of your response...

He didn’t misconstrue something important here. He heard "I would like you to cook the nuggets" and didn’t want to. That is a valid subjective summary of what you said, but stated in a negative way.

Did it make sense he should cook the nuggets, yes. He said he would like to make them, and you bought ingredients that he could do so. But you were suggesting he cook them.

Now, did he put a negative spin the way he said it. Yes. Because you two have a terribly antagonistic relationship and fight about shit that doesn’t matter.

If it were me, trying to reconcile. I would have answered his annoying "why am I expected to cook?"

I would have said "sorry, you are not expected. Would you like me to try the nugget recipe or are you in the mood for something else."

Would I live like that forever—-hell no. But I would model the behavior for some period of time, and if he didn’t start responding better in a few months of being consistent I would say "I think we need to learn to communicate better, I would like to go to MC together work on those skills with you because I love you and I think it’s important we work on our marriage."

If he doesn’t improve or agree to Mc then I would have to look at my boundaries.

Nothing you have described looks like abuse.

Manipulation can be being benign or abusive.

It looks like very poor communication skills due to excessive bickering. And bickering since you like concrete:

bickering

Bickering refers to the act of engaging in petty, peevish, or trivial arguments. It is typically a back-and-forth, repetitive exchange over minor matters rather than a serious, constructive debate.

Key Characteristics

Subject Matter: Often involves insignificant, daily details (e.g., who does the dishes, whose turn it is to drive, or misplaced items).

Tone: Generally ill-tempered, irritable, or sarcastic, rather than physical or deeply malicious.

Underlying Causes: Psychologically, it can act as an emotional shield; constant bickering often masks deeper, unresolved feelings like neglect, stress, or feeling unappreciated.

You are both doing it. It’s making both of you miserable with the other and it’s not modeling great behavior for your daughter or providing her with the environment she deserves and that’s worse than feeding her less nutritional meals or letting her watch tv. You are teaching her about relationships.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:05 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

No it’s not. It’s him feeling defensive that you don’t like how he parents. He is deflecting yes, manipulating no. This is not abuse. This is typical when both people want to be right and feel understood.

I agree that it's defensiveness. Deflection and subject-switching ARE manipulation tactics. According to an article titled "20 Emotional Manipulation Tactics: The List You Need To Know" that can be found on mypeoplepatterns dot com:

Deflection and Switchtracking
Definition: Changing the subject to avoid accountability.

Effects: Creates confusion and shifts focus.

Mechanism: Redirecting attention to avoid responsibility and manipulate conversations.

Example: Bringing up past mistakes of someone else when confronted about your own behavior.

Deflection and switchtracking are two related manipulation tactics that allow someone to avoid taking responsibility or to change the subject away from an uncomfortable topic. Deflection involves shifting blame, criticism or negative attention onto someone or something else to evade accountability. Switchtracking is a conversational pattern where one party seamlessly changes the topic or "switches tracks" to a different issue, often in response to feedback they don't want to hear. The switchtracked topic may be important too, but the abrupt shift means the original conversation gets derailed and both topics end up unresolved. Manipulators use deflection and switch tracking, consciously or unconsciously, to dodge difficult subjects and maintain control of the interaction.

If you combine that with the other tactics he used in that conversation, such as downplaying/minimizing ("How many times have you gone away, and how many times has she starved?") and gaslighting ("you're just making things up to be mad about") it's an undeniable pattern where he systematically eliminates my ability to communicate through issues with him. That's abusive.

This isn't about me "not liking his parenting" or "wanting to be right," this is about me trying to get our daughter basic and adequate care when I can't be there to provide it to her. I know for a fact it's not comfortable to admit when you haven't been doing what you're supposed to do for your own child, but that doesn't remove the fact that he has an obligation to do it.

How often are you really gone? What did he feed her this time?

I'm away at least monthly, anywhere from 1-21 days, most commonly 2-4 days. He didn't have to feed her anything this time because I drove across the state so that my mother could take care of her. When I do leave her home with him, he doesn't eat vegetables, so she doesn't get offered vegetables, nor any food that he isn't sure she'll eat literally all of. He gets mad at her if she takes whole fruit from the counter because she'll eat half of it, and then he gets mad that it gets wasted (it doesn't have to be wasted; the remains could be fed to the chickens, or at the very least, it could be composted.) He won't give her frozen fruit either, because it's messy. He doesn't cook for them, so they'll eat out, which means she'll get meals like chicken fingers and fries, buttered noodles, or chocolate chip pancakes. Because she's young and small, she doesn't have a huge stomach, so she needs to eat frequently. But if she only eats a small part of her meal and asks for a snack, he'll say no because she didn't eat all of her meal, or if he does give her a snack, the next time she's asks for food, he says no because "she's been eating all day." She's developed a habit of sneaking food and closet eating, which concerns me a lot as someone with a genetic propensity for binge eating disorder. So like, yeah, she hasn't starved to death. But is that really the standard for her care?? Not "eats enough to support her growth and has a mostly nutritious diet?" He's making me seem unreasonable for asking for that, instead of just trying to do better.

You two bicker, and equally escalate.

I don't understand why you keep downplaying this and insisting that I must be doing something to equally cause it. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells trying to approach these issues as gently as possible in the hopes he doesn't do this shit to me and we can actually resolve the issue at hand. I don't think I deserve this at all.

He didn’t misconstrue something important here. He heard "I would like you to cook the nuggets" and didn’t want to. That is a valid subjective summary of what you said, but stated in a negative way.

Did it make sense he should cook the nuggets, yes. He said he would like to make them, and you bought ingredients that he could do so. But you were suggesting he cook them.

Now, did he put a negative spin the way he said it. Yes. Because you two have a terribly antagonistic relationship and fight about shit that doesn’t matter.

If it were me, trying to reconcile. I would have answered his annoying "why am I expected to cook?"

I would have said "sorry, you are not expected. Would you like me to try the nugget recipe or are you in the mood for something else."

It's one thing if he says "Why am I expected to cook?" once. It's quite another thing if I say, "That's not what I said. I asked you if you wanted to cook, because the chicken's going to go bad, and I also offered to cook myself" and he doubles down with "Well it sure sounded like you expected me to cook." It's the same as the laundry thing; he has this narrative in his head that I'm a terrible housewife and I'm not upholding my half of the responsibilities. He's defending this narrative by distorting reality-- instead of his wife being willing to cook and trying to reduce waste to save money on groceries, and making sure they have the ingredients on hand so that he has the option of cooking the meal he previously expressed a desire to cook, in his head it's that he works all day while his wife sits around, and then he has to come home and slave away at the stove if he wants a hot meal. All he has to say is, "I'd prefer if you cook," and it'd be over and done with. But that doesn't support "She doesn't do anything," does it?

Like I'm not coming at him with "You don't feed our child right! You suck at parenting!" or "You're going to kill my chickens! Why can't you follow simple directions??" No. I specifically avoid "you" statements, saying things like "I have concerns about our daughter's diet when I'm away" or "Thanks for taking care of my chickens while I was away. There are a couple things that are really important to make sure get done next time..." and then bending over backwards to make it easy for him. I made a whole study guide to try and communicate better, ffs. But sure, that's just me "bickering" and "needing to be right" I guess.

I will say that with the job I have, I am absolutely not tolerant of this kind of defensive shit. This gets trained allll the fuck the way out of us, and we hold each other accountable so that the mission gets completed and we all grow as people in the process.

You two bicker, and equally escalate.

I don't understand why you keep downplaying this and insisting that I must be doing something to equally cause it.

Seriously? You love to argue! Admit it. Pages and pages of you arguing with just about every member and almost anything that gets written. The proof, as "they" say, is in the pudding.

Tell me honestly. Does your passion or compulsion to argue about everything ever get exhausting? Aren't you tired of it? Wouldn't it be nice to have a simple conversation about chicken nuggets?

I am going to answer a couple of things. You are probably going to blow up at me, and it’s unneeded- we can agree I won’t post further if you wish for me not to because I think it’s far more important you stay. I do seem some improvement in your restraint with the people of the forum and I give credit where it’s due.

1. If he is a bad father who you can’t leave you kid with, then why continue?

2. . It’s obvious from your narrative that you all feel very defensive with each other, and pretty equally. You are calling it abuse but as I have said manipulation can be benign, and also unintentional.

3. You feel I am minimizing, I feel you are maximizing and contributing directly to the dynamic because you refuse to see that you have caused a lot of the resentment he is exhibiting.

he has this narrative in his head that I'm a terrible housewife and I'm not upholding my half of the responsibilities.

No- he has a narrative in his head that is worse than that. He is restraining himself. It is far more likely:

"This woman continues to disrespect and disregard me by cheating on me. I am far too mentally exhausted to go through the litigation gymnastics she uses to get me to understand why. She obviously doesn’t love me the least she could do is…insert chore here"

But if he said that, it would make things far worse. So he is vindictive and defensive. The best way to counteract it is to find a way to see that pain and show him you love him and want to ease it—-in every way. But since you have been here you have described how he asked you to come to bed with him because it triggered him you were up alone. Normal bs request. You came up with the most unimportant reason not to do that—-cleaning. He doesn’t want you to clean really, he does but he doesn’t. He wants any reason to stay because he fucking loves you and wants this to work.

And all anyone has been trying to plead with you to do is consider him and what he needs right now more than you consider your need to be understood, to be perceived as good. Show your goodness and it won’t be questioned.

I have truly started to wonder if you act out in all these ways- the cheating, the litigating, the control because you don’t trust him to love you?

Can you not see there is such deep stuff here past what you are maximizing and what you feel I am minimizing?

You hang on to every point you have like it’s the most important thing you could ever say. That’s what people are telling you when they say things like you do it here.

4. You have said you have clearly explained how you are being abused, Yet when you describe abuse it sounds like two way bickering, in which you both at all times for the other to be wrong and you to be right. You try and paint yourself stance as reasonable but it isn’t.

If he had a physical wound you could see, you probably could understand better he feels cranky, tired, exhausted and you probably would be very loving and care for him while he healed. I mean I hope you would. But something in you can’t make his emotional wounds bigger than yours. And that’s what it’s going to take to turn the corner on this thing. You have to make that the priority for the next little while and learn to self soothe.

Later, after he has had time to rest, and you have turned the corner then pick one thing to work on. And I think here we both agree it’s communication. But until he believe you are in his side 100 percent, he is going to resist that progress because he doesn’t know how to be vulnerable with you. He is pushing you away out of fear and I sort of thing you are doing the same thing back to him for the same reason.

Your study guide is based on a skewed perception of the situation. Throw it away. It’s garbage. I understand the need for it, I had some rote responses myself for certain situations. But mine were with the intention of de-escalating, yours is to prevent abuse. Reality is if it was abuse you would still veer towards de-escalating because abused people tip toe.

Your new study guide: prove to him you love him, no matter what his external behavior looks like. Obviously if he was calling you names, shouting, or hitting you then don’t do that. But in all other cases that’s what this is going to take.

I think you may believe what is true- I do want to help you, I do want this to work for you. But you are doing everything that puts a nail in the coffin because you in the end aren’t taking on the responsibility of causing this trauma in the first place.

Now- was he probably fun to live with before? I am betting no! He is critical and when critical people get married it eats away at the love and tender feelings. I bet it. But by cheating you are sitting in a different paradigm where you are going to have to be the bigger person, lead the effort and be the steady rock. Once stability is back, which will be a long time from now, then you can start building the relationship you both want. He is far more likely to be cooperative if he doesn’t feel like he is going to go through these litigation techniques. I am starting to wonder if you are an attorney.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:16 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

I don't love to argue with him over how to feed our kid, when I did laundry last, who's cooking dinner, etc. I love a good debate about topics like the relative benefits and drawbacks of social media or AI, whether ID should be a requirement to vote, what limitations anti-discrimination laws and affirmative action should have, how much control the local government should have over your property, etc.

It would absolutely be nice to have a calm discussion about chicken nuggets.

Why do you think you do it? How does something as simple as dinner become such a drawn out process?